Well, this came as a shock. Yes I heard a rattle underneath, at idle in drive. But I brought it into a shop because I didn't feel like jacking it up once again. Problem: broken rubber damper, damage $1,500 for the part, 14 hours labor to replace it, will be a bit over $3K. Sad part, the previous owner had replaced it once already in about 2005. Don't know, maybe this is a wear item like the belts: every 10 years a new damper. Requires trans removal, exhaust, torque tube, etc. I essentially never get on the car, so abuse isn't a factor.
I did suspect this was the problem, the symptoms were identical to this:
http://www.968forums.com/topic/11485-god...ing-sound/
You can see in that post when I wrote about this repair. The damper was only $900 back then, vs the shop quoting $1,500. Pelican parts shows them at $1,399.
So................... this is the big so?
My 968 has 183K miles, and salvage title a few other little odds and ends that need repair (e.g. sunroof).
Yesterday I found two 968s for sale, both with high mileage, but less than mine, with asking price in the $6K-$7K range. Suggesting mine would be worth less than those two examples (I think it is worth at least $150K, but not sure anyone would buy it for that <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/whine.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ). What would you do, put $3,500 into a car that might sell for less than $6-7K, given who knows what else big could go wrong. By the way, it is drivable just don't stop or put it into idle if you do -- but that probably won't last and something else could get destroyed. And no, I am not going to jack it up (ah-gin) in my garage and do all of this myself.
So what to do:
- the last couple of years I had been thinking some day I would get another 968, lower miles, etc.
- I'm a grandpa, with two more coming in January. Maybe I should get a 4-door Buick sedan, and then drive real slow and annoy the people behind me. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ninja.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
- Started searching on Boxsters and 996s, plenty of them around to choose from, would be nice to have a change or get back in a 911 again.
- Bought my daughter a 2005 Mazda3 - I always liked these, are sporty and practical (nahhh!)
Getting another 968, my requirements are firm:
- coupe
- not red, white or black
- interior not black
- tiptronic
- everything working and functional, only very minor dings and wear
I don't know, by the time I fly around the country finding one, or waiting for months and months for one to surface more locally doesn't sound appealing.
Have no complaints honestly, I love the 968s, have been driving mine now for 6.5 years after it was totaled and repaired. Annual operating cost for the lifetime of the car has been incredibly low. Would hate to leave this great forum. But I might need a change. My main car has always been a Porsche since 1988, and have always had a great experience -- no need to change this habit.
Any comments and advice welcome!!!!!
Sound like the mechanic is only experienced with 944's the transmission and torque rube don't need to come out for the job. Might want to get a second opinion, shouldn't be a need to replace itif it's already been replaced.
unfortunately, from everything i have heard, yes they do have to come out. as i remember, the bell housing does not allow the damper to come out without dropping the torque tube, which requires the transmission be removed. i haven't had to do it yet, but the two people that i know who have had to remove the box. i can't find the procedure in the 968 manual, which leads me to believe that it is a carryover procedure from the 944.
Having done the rear damper on the black cab I'm currently driving as a DIY and as part of a larger restoration project, why not pull the motor instead of the transmission. Slightly easier job and while the motor is out a total reseal to stop all those nagging oil leaks is a piece of cake. If you get really giddy you can pull off the headers and have them aluminum ceramic coated. Having done the clutch in an S2 several (13) years ago, and a damper plate in the cab 2 years ago, I can say the motor out option is a much better deal. Plus the added benefit of being able to work on the motor out of the car is a dream. Just my thoughts having been there. The other question I would ask aloud is why would you get rid of a tip to buy another tip with a damper plate of unknown condition when you can replace the one in yours and know it's brand new. What is it they say better the devil you know....
[quote name='968cabx2' timestamp='1414718649' post='163345']
The other question I would ask aloud is why would you get rid of a tip to buy another tip with a damper plate of unknown condition when you can replace the one in yours and know it's brand new. What is it they say better the devil you know....
[/quote]
Its really an investment question. Like I said my 968 has a salvage title; my son drove it in a ditch, and there was a lot of "superfluous" damage which I was able to repair myself, nothing major, but the insurance company didn't want the risk of signing up to repair everything. I saw it as a fun project, didn't have any high expectations that I could bring back, but was pleasantly surprised. And the miles are high, so would I be better off with a much lower mileage 968 that I continue to invest in, or purchase this one repair knowing that the high miles suggest other major bad things could go wrong? Don't know. Clearly short term use of capital is lowest by just doing this one repair. So if this just opens the door to who knows what is next .... transmission work, head work, suspension work, repaint, seats recovered ...... the list could go on an on.
I think I'll get some of that spray construction foam, or some spray epoxy. Open the bell housing inspection port, spray it all in there, and maybe the 2 yokes will stick themselves together. What do you think? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/icon_lol1.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
"so would I be better off with a much lower mileage 968 that I continue to invest in."
Any 968 is probably a bad investment. But repair is a good choice if you are paying simply for pleasure. I spent a lot of money fixing mine and, in the end, it was not the "good money after bad" that caused me to sell, just the fact that it started to be a real nuisance to me with no means to fix anything myself. No garage, small driveway, 5 vehicles, no tools, too busy, 2 left hands, etc. And my step son walked in the house one night with money in his wallet.
PS - I still miss the car.
the issue with the tip is that the damper is rubber. rubber ages out. also, it's in a hot area. that doesn't help. this part is going to continue to fail. it will last a number of years before it does, but it's going to go eventually. i'm dreading it failing on mine.
things that would accelerate failure:
2 foot driving (one on gas one on brake - always use only 1 foot
hard downshifts - manually downshifting and stomping on it on takeoff add stress to the damper
extreme temperatures - hot weather and sitting in traffic are not good for rubber - extreme cold isn't either
Why not mount a flex plate from an american v8? Drill some extra holes and sent the parts to a company for balancing.those plates are complete different i saw on the pictures. I do not have experience with it but if mine failed i will give it a try. Plate is 180 dollar for a brand new one i saw on different website. What is your opinion flash?
it's a rather convoluted assembly in there. i have thought about replacing it with a damped clutch disk and pressure plate. i just haven't gotten into it, and hope not to.
If you don't fix it, the car is worth $1,500...or part it out. I think you need to fix it, even if you plan to sell the car.
JMHO,
Jay
a lot more to be had parting it out. a lot of work though, and a lot of space needed.
Thanks all for the comments. Current state of mind: get it fixed.
If you have to drop the trans to do the work, that's the perfect time to drop the fuel tank and replace all the vent lines. Just had mine done, and it helped quite a bit, but there is still some smell. Next I am going after the vent lines under the hood and the carbon can in the fender well.
Flex dampner plate removal is a huge issue. For whatever reason, when it goes it also frequently shears the front of the drive tube.
I have pictures of the carnage at home.
1. Rubber dies. So expect it.
2. The part is achieving unobtanium status.
3. You really do have to remove everything either from the engine forward or from the drivetrain back.
4. If you search the web for this specific failure, there are people who have deleted the dampner and replaced it with a late model clutch plate from a 944. I do not know the impact of doing so.
I had a huge bill for this job from a prior mechanic. On the plus side the guys who did the actual work own late model 945's. On the negative side the shop owner was an idiot and chose to test drive the car on the hottest day of the summer without eithet fan connected. Blew the head gasket which is why my car sat for a year while I scrounged the cash for an engine rebuild.
The part cost me $1,000.00 from a parts warehouse in the Carolinas. Removal replacement and drive shaft removal and replacement was around $3000. My current mechanic told me he would have done it for around $2500 all told.
Current mechanic actually pulled drive train when he rebuilt engine just because he didn't want his work to be for naught due to drive train explosion.
The good news- the previous mechanic did a top notch job. The bad news, I feel like I owe my current mechanic 10 hours labor at least.
Mine failed around 160k. I figure that it was worth the money because I have no car payment and it will likely last 6 years. Kinda the same with rebuilding engine. Was it expensive? Yep. $4,000. But literally the entire engine, fuel system, vac lines, belts, rollers, head, valves, - you get the point is brand new or fully within Porsche specs.
I'm left now with a car with new brakes, new engine, new drive train, and aside from needing bulbs for clock, ashtray, and gauge clusters I'm good. Could the tranny blow up? Sure. But it isn't too likely.
In the meantime I get to enjoy the car and look forward to getting the body repainted in the Spring.
Now if I could only get the damn cab top to open I'd be amazingly happy.
from what i have been able to find so far, the "clutch swap" has only been done in the automatic 944. i have not yet heard of anybody doing it in the 968. i'm not saying that it can't be done, and it is what i will consider if i have to go there.
re: engine rebuild cost - feel good - mine cost me $20k by the time i was done.
That guy ruined your car and you have to pay the bill?
Long story-
Guy is a neighbor. Literally no one told me he was going touched in the head. So it became an issue where he dragged his feet charged more nickeled and dimed me and frayed my last nerve. Obviously I'm leaving the details out to keep it short.
The day the car was finally ready- I get a phone call at 9 from the shop owner telling me it was ready. I told him I'd be by after lunch to pick it up. I asked if everything was completed. He said it was. I asked how it was running and he said "great, but it needs gas". I told him I'd take care of the gas.
So skip forward to this Spring. I have a really good BMW mechanic. So good his shop actually does warranty work for the local BMW dealership. So I had my wife's x5 in the shop to get some maintenance done to keep it up to snuff records wise. So the guy doing the diagnostic computer looks up and says "hey you're the guy with the green 968". Takes me a minute to recognize him as the actual mechanic that did the work on my car. And before I could do anything he says "I'm sorry about what the owner did to your car. Have I found another person to fix it yet?"
So in the back and forth that followed I learned the owner of that shop had gotten progressively flakey to the point where even long time customers had left as well as his mechanics.
So scroll back to the day I thought I was picking the car up finally after the flex dampner had been replaced. About 11 am I get a call from the owner telling me there is an issue. I ask what it is but he said he'd tell me when I get there. So I show up thinking he's going to demand even more money or otherwise be an ass. So imagine my surprise when he tells me that my head gasket is blown, my coolant system was empty and my expansion tank had major cracks.
I told him that there was zero possibility of that being true. To which he said I must have been pouring coolant in daily. Told him I hadn't. So I look at my car and sure enough cylinder 4 plug was an inch deep in coolant, the expansion tank was cracked to hell and back and there was literally zero visible coolant. I told him point blank he had to have done something. He denied everything.
Back to his former mechanic at my wife's bmw shop. He tells me the shop owner was obsessed with the fuel level in the car. The mechanic kept telling him that he would put a splash in the tank from a gas can he had. That would have been enough to start the car, drive 1 mile to the nearest gas station where I would have been able to fill my tank and go for a drive to a Shell or BP station with high storage tank turn over.
I had gone ahead and had rollers, tensioners, belts changed. To keep things out of the way while working on them, the wires to the fans had been disconnected. The mechanic had lowered the car off the lift it had been sitting on for a month. He rolled it out of the way in the yard.
Meanwhile numb nuts owner of the shop decides hell do a little 10 mile joy ride to test out the car and put some gas in it. This is about 10:30 AM. Off he drives without telling anyone. So the gas station is a mile away. Drives down fills it up with generic no name gas then goes roaring off to do an 8 mile loop. With only the flow through air and no fan. The temp that day was 106 F. Three traffic lights one way. He realized something was wrong when it started overheating and drove it back to his shop.
That's when the mechanic told him he was an idiot and just baked the head gasket at a minimum. And as they were standing their the expansion tank blew, turning the top into a spiderweb of cracks. The mechanic informed the shop owner that it was his fault.
So that's when the owner then called me to tell me we had an issue that he wouldn't go into over the phone.
Eventually I showed up. Was told the real reason my flex dampner broke had to be the result of a previous and ultimately obvious head gasket failure. Which it turns out he'd be happy to fix. I pointed out the fans were both disconnected. And that prior to him getting his hands on my car I had neither a spider web cracked expansion tank nor disconnected fans. And further I'm amazed that the issue had so suddenly been found that morning since I surely would have noticed coolant residue everywhere the numerous times I had walked under the car the past month. He then said he wasn't responsible.
I told him the hours of additional work he had done, the slowness that he had exhibited while holding my car hostage for three months, the to the milliliter supply charges, the deadline slipping, and the fact my car now doesn't work at all kinda makes me disinclined to let him do another damn thing to my car.
I paid the bill dumped straight water in the radiator- and drove it four miles home where it sat until August of this year.
It sat partly because I debated doing it myself, partly because I figured I could find someone who'd do it as well as me, and partly because I had just spent a s***load of money on a paperweight. Fortunately delay and serendipity was the correct path.
So to wrap it up, my new mechanic and his crew arranged for a Porsche 924/928/944/968 & various 911 incarnations meet at a local venue. Kinda an end of my misery celebration for getting the cat done and back on the road. So we had all our cars set up in a side lot next to the venue. And of course people were coming and gawking at our cars. I had the only 968 Cab and was parked next to a 968 Coupe owner and we were deep in conversation exchanging gripes and dislikes and joys of owning these cars. When out of the blue the owner of the first shop walks up and says " I did a lot of work on that car to keep it on the road".
You coulda blown me over with a feather.
Anyway I was conveniently escorted away by my new mechanics so that I didn't blow a mental head gasket.
So I'm fully expecting to have to replace it in six years just because the part was brand new but a couple decades old when I put it in. Maybe by then the used clutch plate solution will be perfected.
I recall some older years of Porches, maybe 70s or 80s 911, used rubber shock absorbers on the clutch disk. Eventually everyone moved to clutch disks with springs instead. I wonder if a failed 968 flex plate (rubber damper) could be retrofitted, rebuilt with springs? Flash, is that an engineering challenge? Sounds like a big design problem, machining the 2 halves of the flex plate, possibly even specing a new spring since there probably isn't one off-the-shelf, finding a way to mount the springs, design to an MTBF of what....... about 30 years?
there is a lot going on in there, not the least of which is the bell housing is different between the manual and tip. i haven't had a chance to see what would be involved. after the fiasco that was the spring clutch disk development project, and knowing how long it takes and how much hassle it is to pull the damper, i'm not inclined to do any experimenting. add to that the fact that i am going to sell the white car, and hopefully avoid having to deal with the job at all (there is only 22k on the car so there is a good chance it's fine for a long time), and we are at a a place where we may never know.
Oh, that's just F'ing great news for me ( consider previous statement to be written in sarcasm font ) who is now the sole guinea pig on this planet testing the durability of the rubber flex plate / damper with the added torque of a D1R super charger putting even more stress on it. The flex plate was replaced about 20 k miles ago, so we'll see how long it lasts ... Ugh.