[quote name='VGM911' post='29323' date='Dec 22 2006, 06:49 PM']The article presented a fairly accurate description of those strengths and weaknesses. That the 968 finished third within the specific creteria selected for the test does not diminish our cars, nor our enjoyment of them. Thanks, wjk for writing such a thoughtful comment for this thread. And to you, too, flash.[/quote]
I couldn't disagree more. Stock is stock and modified is modified. Anyone that's ever modified a street car knows there is a huge difference.
Do the comparo with all stock cars or all modified. Anything else is an apples to oranges comparison. I'd even accept the tail dragger bias if the cars were all stock or all modified. Excellence had access to a comparable 968 and declined.
As a former owner of two 911's - a '76 & '91 - I will add my 2 cents.
I loved both those Porsches - but in every drive I take, I am more impressed with my '93 Cobalt Blue Cab Tip. May be 'cause I am getting old - but the values of the 968's "Grand Touring" tendencies are good for me. I drive in crawling traffic far more often than Canyon roads. When my wife and I are on Club trips we carry lots more than any Boxter or 911 owner and we enjoy (as has been said here) the safety & comforts of a more modern Porsche at half the price. We get great fuel mileage. and when the Club finds an open mile or two of twistie road, I keep up with the crowd and leave some behind. Everything in life is a compromise - and the one I am driving suits me just fine.
And I am happy to note, in another "Comparo" My Porsche won the PCA Parade class "Peoples Choice Award" in Portland, so I know I am not alone in liking this Porsche.
To each his own & Merry Christmas to all in Porsche world.
From Jack in Seattle & his Cobalt Blue 968
Considering the looks, the preformance, and how rare our cars are, I'd not trade mine for either of the other two. In the 5 years I've owned my 968, I've only seen one other one, other than the ones at shows. I feel with the ProMax chip and the drilled air box our car would have showed up much better.
First off, it was wonderful to see Jarod's gorgeous 968 in Excellence's 20 year anniversary issue!!!!
I've been reading Excellence since it was called Porsche. I also spent all my free time during the late 80's to mid 90's huddling around the Porsches of that period.
Simply fantastic Porsches. All of them.
As we all know, in stock form, the 968 has more horsepower in a more refined package than the stunning 88-89 944 Turbo S. As such, Porsche offered us a wonderful car to end the 924/944/968 evolution.
The last of the 3.2 Carreras with the G-50 transmission are still considered by some Porsche-philes the end of the true hand built 911.
However, I do not share this sentiment, as I absolutely love the 964s, 993s and am quite smitten with the new 997 GT3 RS.
Sooooo, as much as I enjoy the 968, I can accept that the 89 Anni won the comparo.
Here's the catch. Most of the Porsche fans who feel that the true 911 ended with the 3.2 Carrera would like to own an 89 Anni. And there are a lot of these potential buyers. But, simply not a lot of Anniversary coupes to be had.
Hmm.
So if a nice clean 89 Anniversary example with tasty mods can be had for $20,000. I'll take one!!!!
Porsche
[quote name='porsche' post='29404' date='Dec 26 2006, 02:57 PM']Simply fantastic Porsches. All of them.
As we all know, in stock form, the 968 has more horsepower in a more refined package than the stunning 88-89 944 Turbo S. As such, Porsche offered us a wonderful car to end the 924/944/968 evolution.[/quote]
I agree that all of the cars in the comparo were very nice cars. However, there is no way the 968 chosen was the right car even if it was gorgeous.
On your second point the 88 Turbo S or 89 944 turbo were both 247 hp and 250 ft-lbs of torque and all of them had LSD, M030 and a various other go fast goodies. Needless to say that trumps the 968, and can be made to produce incredible amounts of HP and torque with little modification. I bought the 968 for its refinement, chassis and N/A torque and love it. Nevertheless do not confuse it with a car that will beat a Turbo S in anything but autocross.
I've owned an 89 N/A and 2 89 turbos, so am very familiar with their plusses and minuses.
Here are a few things everyone should know since you weren't privy to the selection process.
1) Pete Stout's Boxster had the RoW M030 installation completed the week prior. It was not guaranteed that it would be complete before the comparison was done.
2) The '89 Anniversary 911 was selected the week prior based on its overall condition.
3) I was unaware that my 968 was going to be placed against heavily modified examples.
While it is very easy in hindsight to criticize Pete or the magazine for various issues, the fact remains that it is a comparison that involves much subjectivity. Pete has a responsibility for putting together an article using well-maintained vehicles with drivers that have no agenda and vehicles that will photograph well. Had I known that this was going to be a comparison based solely on driving winding roads and not all around drivability (including ergonomics, interior room, fuel economy, etc) I might have suggested an M030 optioned vehicle.
Bob Chapman's comments on the ergonomics of the 968 are entirely out of left field IMO. Having driven all three cars the only criticisms I have about the 968 are the poor placement of the hazard light switch (read: in front of the passenger?) and the closeness of the windshield wiper lever to the cruise control lever. Many a time I have accidentally sprayed my windshield while attempting to engage the cruise control only to have a relatively clean windshield turned into the before picture for a windex advertisement. The cheap interior plastics of the Boxster along with the horrible climate control and speedometer placement of the 911 make the 968 the clear champion in this arena. However, Bob did not see it this way. He thought the 968 interior was very 80s in a bad way, to which I entirely disagree.
No matter which 968 was chosen that fell into the $20,000 category (read: an RS Barn or heavily modified example would not) based on the drivers attending the comparison, the 968 would still not have won. It was a fun article, and it may have been more objective had the vehicles been unmolested examples, not modified ones. Then the true merits and weaknesses of all vehicles would have been readily apparent. The other variable of the drivers must also be considered. Having two drivers heavily biased towards the 911 would have made it difficult for any 968 to win although I'm not saying that for a fact. For overall driving, daily usage, etc. the 968 is the clear winner but for weekend fun on winding roads I can agree that the 911 is a blast. You may keep chiming in with your opinions, and I certainly enjoy reading them, but I think we can all agree that our cars are very good at many things but they still don't have the soul of a 911. 968s have more space, are more comfortable, get better fuel economy, have better climate controls, etc., but they don't have the rear engined, visceral feel that the 911 has. I am certainly not going out to buy a 911 but I can concede when one car is better than another in a given area.
Well, the Pony Express finally got my copy of Excellence to me (awaited with baited breath!). Turned to the Shootout (maybe Assasination would be a better title!) and read it thru... Very confused...
1. I have owned more than a dozen Porsches, from my 1968 911L, thru '70's 911S' and SC's, 914 2.0's, and more recently a bevy of 951's 944S, 944S2, 928 (the wife's), and now my '92 968... so I feel qualified to comment on any of Porsches "flock"...
2. If the 968's interior is subpar in a bad '80's way, then ANY 911 derivative is substandard in a bad '60's way... get a clue here!!! They looked like the inside of a custom VW Bug until the 993, and even those won't win the interior design of the year award! And, at 6'4", I can't even fit in a Boxster! So we won't beat the ergonomics of that dead horse...
3. Performance... With the airbox mod and a good chip, my 968 does NOT give up an inch in the quarter mile to either the 911 or the Boxster, and I venture to say not at the top end either! By the time I hit 6th gear, the 911 front end would be getting ready to lift off, and fading into the distance to boot! Okay, the Boxster might give me a run for it, but I would like to find out for myself!
4. Now we get to all this crap about handling... I must have purchased the only non M030 968 that STICKS, because I absolutely do not have a "MUSHY" turn in, and do not have to wait for the suspension to "take a set" when I turn in. In fact, my previous Porsche was a 2.0 914 (read "Go Cart") and my 968 actually surprised me at how precise the handling is... very comparable to my 914 with brand new Bilsteins, and you don't get a lot better than that! I am in the process of upgrading to Coilovers, and then the 968 will be downright scary! Now, in all fairness, I have upgraded to 17" TT Alloys and Yoko AVS tires in 225/50 and 255/40 sizes, but they can only account for some of the crisp handling... Maybe a top quality 4 wheel alignment was needed on the 968 in the article???
5. Well, can we all say "NARP"??? Just a bit of bias here and I don't mean in the brake department either. Sheeeeesh! I thought they were talking about my wifes 928S! Now there was a Freeway Cruiser!
Oh, well, as was well said previously... "Apples to Oranges" or more like "Sour Grapes to Oranges". Let's demand a rematch!
sbdrivingdotcom - Thanks for the clarifications and impressions. Yours is the definitive word on this subject. Glad you showed the flag for us!
I thought the article was fair - based on the cars selected. What wasn't fair was the specs of cars selected and then how they were evaluated. The 968 would have faired much better if they were all bone stock cars. If the test had involved any real life activities like commuting, going to the store, golfing, etc - those other cars would have been in trouble. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Hey, it is a magazine article not science. What do you expect? I would prefer the Porsche world be kept in the dark about how good these cars are anyways. I guess the secret is still safe.
sbdriving's car did look like a very nice example of a 968. It was a success in the 'choosing one that photographed well' category.
I too was very disappointed to see that not all cars were stock.
I would have much preferred to see all stock cars, or all modified cars, not a mix. Or personally, I would have loved to see the best (stock) optioned cars of each, or the best stock cars possible.
I would feel violated/molested if a magazine was supposed to conduct an objective comparison of my car and others and came back with such an article. It would be like letting your kitten walk into a lions den or your car role into a chop shop, it's your responsibility to protect your car (and family of car) against such threats that all add up to a diminished value. What a bogus comparision. My background involves in depth education on experimentation and research methods, and I've never seen such extraneous variables that were ignored. I would have never let them have my car if they were going to compare it to a Carrera GT. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Rant off.
[quote name='rustech' post='29429' date='Dec 27 2006, 10:43 AM']I would have never let them have my car if they were going to compare it to a Carrera GT. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/huh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Rant off.[/quote]
968 is still the better looking of the two, inside and out ! subjective yes, but that's honestly how I feel..
say what you will about the article's comparison, though I completely agree on the apples to apples issue;
if they're not bone stock, what's the point ?
I for one would not be caught dead in a 911 ( ok, GT2 and GT3 are exceptions to the afore statement..but only if they move the ignition switch to the correct side <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/dry.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ) or a much less a boxster...especially
a boxster. Yuk.
Then again, I gave up a 911 in favor of a 944 which I would do all over again, and chose the 968 over a Carrera which I test drove at the time for an entire week only because it would have been the deal of the century, but still was not compelling enough to buy it it over the 968 - just can't get over the upside down bathtub / one step above a VW bug looks of the 911 models. Hey, I'm weird that way, what can I say ?!
and as far as the "80s " interior of the 968 - IM(not so)HO, this was a superb design which remains more aesthetically appealing than all those brushed aluminum panels and square or rectangular dash components of 90% of the newer cars out there - who wants to drive inside a '50s diner ?!
Ok, rant is over.
p.s. did I mention I love this car ?! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
Hey, when in doubt, own a bunch of them! I like Flash's take on it because he's right. Kia and Hyundai produce sedans with more power than our beloved 968's but I'm not trading in for one!
I took the wife for a long drive on Christmas Eve out to Julian via Palomar mt. This car is great for the commute and great for a spirited drive through the canyons as well. I came up on a black on black 968 Cab on the side of the road and pulled over to see if he needed help. He waved he was ok so we took off again. That's the second 968 I have seen on the road since I bought mine last year.
Enjoy your 968 and smile real big when you drive it!
--Tony
As starter of this thread I've been following it with interest. I guess I should weigh in now.
The article was especially interesting to me as it was almost an exact parallel to my process of buying a 968. After many years of driving an '88 944 it was time to upgrade to another Porsche. I wanted a car to be a daily driver (summers in upstate NY), vacation long-distance car, and ocassional DE vehicle. My budget was between 12-18K so I was indeed looking at base Boxsters, 80's vintage 911s, 968s, or 944S2.
My experience driving a 911 from that era was fun. Undeniably cool-looking car with kind of a go-kart feel, a bit like my old GTI. The car, however, not to put too fine point on it, felt crude. The interior was vastly inferior to my 944. It also felt much slower than the 968, at least on the open road. Not a car for long trips either.
I like Boxsters and if I could have afforded an "S" it would probably would have been my choice. Other than that, my reason for not choosing one (other than the fine qualities of the 968) was that I may see a dozen or more a day in the summer. So ubiquitous they begin to morph into Miatas, albeit with much better performance.
When I drove a 968 I felt so at home with the 944-type handling, coupled with big balls and torque. here was the car my 944 coulda been. Beautiful styling, plenty of power for me, and somewhat rare. I searched and found a very-well cared for one and could not be happier. At Porsche and other car events people are drawn to the car, many have never seen one up close. There is plenty of interest and respect from 911 and Boxster guys.
My problem with the article was the same as nearly everyone else has stated. Highly modified cars vs stock. My car is basically stock, no LSD or MO30. I have opened the airbox and intend to chip at some time. Seeing as the article was trying to use cars as enthusiasts would have them they should have at least gotten an MO30 model with chip/airbox mod.
Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts re our wonderful cars!
Maybe I'm not passionate enough but it doesn't bother me at all, what other people choose to drive is up to them. Was it a fair comparison modded vs stock, no but that's OK.
I chose the 968 over many other cars including (but not limited to) 911, 930, 964, 993 and Boxster. While driving my wife's 968 around to look at and drive the various cars I was considering, I decided I liked the 968 better than the other cars I was looking at even though it was appreciably less expensive than most of the other cars.
Enjoy your cars folks.
Hey,
I just got my copy of Exellence (they are slow in CT) and perhaps you will forgive my biased 2 cents.
Jarrod, thank you for putting your gorgeous car in the comparo, you win the most beautiful car category hands down!
I really got tired of reading this superficial bashing of "not-scintillating" "workhorse" 968 in favor of the allmighty, soul-inspiring, thoroughbred 911. The 911 is indeed an amazing and truly unique platform, but it gets enough help from our favorite factory without aftermarket parts and poorly designed (or rigged?) comparos. Zuffenhausen puts detuned Carrera engines in Boxsters, deprives Caymans of LSDs, abandons 928 and awesome 968 Turbo platforms and will probably dial-back Panamera's lap times. All this is to avoid "Carrera killer" headlines and protect the image of sacred (cash) cow 911. Should we expect anything different from a commercial publication "Excellence" that caters to 911 reader contingent and depends arm-and-leg on the factory's good graces? We should feel good that it was forced to resort to last-minute aftermarket suspension/chip tuning of 911/986 for undisclosed amount of $$$ to beat our good-old stock 968.
I am not blind to shortcomings of 968- all cars have their advantages and disadvantages. Stock 968 is not a lightweight car and it's stock alignment was purposefully biased toward comfort (1" higher ride in US models), highway stability (a lot of toe in upfront) and safe understeer (17" 205/255 front/rear tires). I bet that stock 1989 911 was at least as "mushy" and stock Boxster's "SUV-like ride height" and body roll were well-documented in the article. For 968, it only takes 225 or 245 rubber up-front, -1.7 degree of negative camber (maximum in stock set-up) and a very slight toe-in to eliminate understeer, improve agility and still retain daily driver compliance. My non-M030 968 with proper alignment and tire choice became a fine track/autoX weapon that is very competitive with modern P-cars in the handling department, so it basically comes down to driver's skills. I speak from experience of driving Boxsters and still staying with 968 to finish among top 10 drivers in MetroNY autoX run-off last year, ahead of a fair number of skilled drivers in Boxster S/996/997s. My friend drove his coil-over 993 and my stock 968 in autoX and conceded that 968 handling was perfectly neutral with a beautiful balance and no front-engine bias whatsoever.
I do think that 968 has as much soul as anything with the Stuttgart prancing horse on the shield. The 968's beautiful and exclusive curves, 50/50 knife-edge weight balance and menacing mechanical cry of the 3L engine at redline elevate my heartbeat more than those of mass-market, Finland-assembled Boxsters. I think there is a lot more to 968 than its daily-driver advantages.
Speaking of Boxsters. The one in the "comparo" has overheated, required 5 quarts of coolant and basically cut the day short for the team. This is a common problem with early 986 cars. The comparo's "party-pooper" has high miles and the ride downhill must have been fun, but it still does not seem to qualify for Ferry Porsche's dream driving experience. Porsche sports cars are associated with endurance racing, but it is hard to get coolant at the flagging stations...
"Second take"
If the article is unbiased as the author claims, why don't we see Jarrod's opinions in "Second take", which is instead written by two die-hard 911 fans and is essentially a rehash of the 1st take?
If 968 is labeled as an ancient 30-year old 1977 924 design, why all the leeway in modifying "an oldest" car goes to the 1989 911? Perhaps next time Powerhaus can set them up with the right 968 versus S Car Go prepped 911?
Why 2nd place of Porsche's dream driving experience goes to a car that couldn't survive an uphill climb without overheating?
Sorry for the long post. Perhaps the Excellence author has something to say to this?
you hit the nail on the head, which is why i don't read excellence - as pretty as it is, and pete has done a great job in bringing the magazine together in its current form, it is really just an advertisement publication, and not unbiased reviews
you will never see a product comparison article either, if it involves an advertiser - pete stout has flatly refused to do that becaues he doesn't want to piss off his advertisers
lots of pretty pics - text taken wiht a grain of salt
Let's not forget that excellence has offered numerous 944/951/968 articles and tech how-tos over the years. Just in the past few issues there have been several good 968 tech articles.
My growing complaint with excellence is their increasing focus on the "some rich guy bought an old Porsche and spent a bunch of money restoring it" article. These all follow the same structure and seem focused on two things: how cool it is to have an unlimited checkbook and getting the name of every vendor, to include the guy who supplied the air in the tires, mentioned. It was fun the first few times, now it is just annoying. The current issue has three of these - and from my standpoint none seemed particularly groundbreaking. Putting a bigger engine in an older car and painting it nice is not a new idea.
And this is where the magazine starts to lose me. These articles are clearly the focus these days - and unfortunately few people are dropping $75-100k rebuilding a 968.
Now having bashed excellence let me praise it. Another article in the current issue, written by Canadian Dan Proudfoot, is... well... excellent. He chronicles buying a 78 911SC off eBay and then driving it from California home to Toronto. It was fun and informative.
excellence is still a great magazine. You just can't pin your hopes on it flying the non-911 flag or not focusing on the core Porsche demographic. Pete and the boys have managed to make money and stay afloat in a very difficult environment. My subscription will get renewed for many years.
[quote name='flash' post='29495' date='Dec 30 2006, 08:33 AM']...it is really just an advertisement publication, and not unbiased reviews
you will never see a product comparison article either, if it involves an advertiser - pete stout has flatly refused to do that becaues he doesn't want to piss off his advertisers[/quote]
Are you making those allegations based on actual fact? If so, what are they?
Karl.
Back from the holidays, just tuned into the thread, and need to add my 2 cents. Haven't read the article yet and not sure I have to based on everyone's comments. I'm not surprised with conclusion at all given the evaluation criteria of a "blast through the canyon on a Sunday afternoon". This was never the point of the 968. Remember why we all bought these cars in the first place? For me, it had everything to do with the car being a daily driver, fun, attractive, reliable, practical, unique, etc. For the next comparo, keep everything the same except change the criteria to "a run through the canyon on a 3 night/4 day long weekend". Hmmmm ?
Have a great new year everyone! Paul