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Re: the comparison test between the brand new Cayman and the perennial RS; could not help but notice the Cayman's performance stats which are about as close as you can get to our friggin' bone stock 968s

( coupe ), 15 years older .. ! 5.8 sec 0-60 and 160mph top speed.



And Porsche markets the attributes of this new car, how ?! If this reflects a decade and half of technical and performance progress , IMHO, it's a sad day.. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



But hey, it just makes our car look better and better all the time, so that's the silver lining to all this. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

well yes. . . but the Cayman is intentionally underpowered, right? Whereas they got about all they could out of our 4-bangers without induction.



I agree with you the stock Cayman is kind of silly. The Cayman S though. . . and man if they ever have the guts to make a GT3 version. . .

A lot of the new Porsche cars are "underpowered". In the Cayman, the base engine should be the 3.4L that is in the Cayman S now. The Cayman S should have the 3.8L in the 997S. IMHO

I agree, and a limited-slip diff should be an option. But then the car would be faster than the 911, and the truth would finally be revealed, that rear engine format is obsolete.



that said I think a 997 is one of the most gorgeous cars out there. 993 too.



kind of frustrating that marketing seems to be trumping engineering right now in Stuttgart. That said though, they pulled themselves away from the abyss in the early 90's and are now what, the most profitable car company or something? So the marketing people should be acknowledged for that.

now let's see a 968 with a 3.4 and some modest massaging a lot of us have already done - that should be about 300hp



hmmm - not much going for the cayman in the power department

[quote name='ds968' post='36257' date='Jun 1 2007, 02:37 PM']Re: the comparison test between the brand new Cayman and the perennial RS; could not help but notice the Cayman's performance stats which are about as close as you can get to our friggin' bone stock 968s

( coupe ), 15 years older .. ! 5.8 sec 0-60 and 160mph top speed.



And Porsche markets the attributes of this new car, how ?! If this reflects a decade and half of technical and performance progress , IMHO, it's a sad day.. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



But hey, it just makes our car look better and better all the time, so that's the silver lining to all this. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />[/quote]





You are looking at it the wrong way.



Curb Weight

Cayman: 2867LBS

968 C: 3086LBS



HP

Cayman: 245HP

968 C: 236HP



Price

Cayman: $49,400

968 C: $39,950 = $54,512 2007 Dollars





Offering a car with greater HP/Weight Ratio & stiffer chassis for less money = progress. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

[quote name='ds968' post='36257' date='Jun 1 2007, 11:37 AM']...about as close as you can get to our friggin' bone stock 968s

( coupe ), 15 years older .. ! 5.8 sec 0-60 and 160mph top speed.[/quote]



The are very close in practice, though the Cayman get a better initial launch (almost certainly due to its weight bias).



0-60 MPH

968 6-spd Coupe = 6.1 seconds (average from 8x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 5.6 seconds (average from 2x reviews)



60-100 MPH

968 6-spd Coupe = 9.4 seconds (average from 7x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 8.3 seconds (from just 1x review I've seen to date)



1/4-mile trap speed

968 6-spd Coupe = 97-mph (average from 5x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 100-mph (average from 2x reviews)



Avg "G" over 1/4-mile (my favorite as it gives a sense of how hard the car accelerates)

968 6-spd Coupe = 0.24 G (average from 5x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 0.25 G (average from 2x reviews)



Now one area the reviews gave a huge advantage to the Cayman over the 968 was in breaking distances. But don't forget, the 968 tests were conducted on 10-15 year old tire technology.



Karl.



PS - Data from those reviews can be found at: http://www.weissach.net/RoadTestSummaries.html

I was in a Cayman a couple of days ago. By measures that are important to me, it didn't measure up to my 968. The ride is noticeably harsher, and the interior room is significantly less. I wouldn't keep one if it was given to me. Recently, I had someone in my 968 who drives a G35. She couldn't get over the fact that my reasonably modified suspension was still more comfortable than her G.

Just my theory



Porsche might be playing CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) risk vs. reward games in the US.



Historically they have paid their penalties instead of meeting the mpg rules. They may be sending cars with just enough power to sell; at the same time providing just enough average mpg to offset the CAFE penalties and still make money.



I suspect the tuner markets ability to get big numbers out of modern porsches has changed. In the past porsche brought cars to the US already maxed out. Now they rely on tuners to bring the best out of the cars. They provide the advanced engineering and rely on the aftermarket to bring the big performance.

[quote name='wjk_glynn' post='37900' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:07 PM']The are very close in practice, though the Cayman get a better initial launch (almost certainly due to its weight bias).



0-60 MPH

968 6-spd Coupe = 6.1 seconds (average from 8x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 5.6 seconds (average from 2x reviews)



60-100 MPH

968 6-spd Coupe = 9.4 seconds (average from 7x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 8.3 seconds (from just 1x review I've seen to date)



1/4-mile trap speed

968 6-spd Coupe = 97-mph (average from 5x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 100-mph (average from 2x reviews)



Avg "G" over 1/4-mile (my favorite as it gives a sense of how hard the car accelerates)

968 6-spd Coupe = 0.24 G (average from 5x reviews)

Cayman 2.7 5-spd = 0.25 G (average from 2x reviews)



Now one area the reviews gave a huge advantage to the Cayman over the 968 was in breaking distances. But don't forget, the 968 tests were conducted on 10-15 year old tire technology.



Karl.



PS - Data from those reviews can be found at: http://www.weissach.net/RoadTestSummaries.html[/quote]





The oem tires from the 90's will not only hinder decel, but accel as well.



what is the fastest time from the 2 reviews you had for the Cayman? the quickest 968 times i have are from cr & driver. 5.6sec 0-60 & 14.2sec 1/4. Also take into consideration that the 968 tests cars were almost excusively cars not equip with MO30. So the handling & braking distances were not the best they could have been.





[quote name='Rick D' post='37903' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:41 PM']Just my theory



Porsche might be playing CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) risk vs. reward games in the US.



Historically they have paid their penalties instead of meeting the mpg rules. They may be sending cars with just enough power to sell; at the same time providing just enough average mpg to offset the CAFE penalties and still make money.



I suspect the tuner markets ability to get big numbers out of modern porsches has changed. In the past porsche brought cars to the US already maxed out. Now they rely on tuners to bring the best out of the cars. They provide the advanced engineering and rely on the aftermarket to bring the big performance.[/quote]





i have to disagree with your last statement. Porsche has not sold a car that was maxed out as far as power goes for a long time. From 930's to 911's to 964's to 928's to 944 Turbo's to 968's....there has always been more power to be had. I cant think of a single car thats maxed out from the factory. People say that about the M3 & S2000 due to their insane hp/liter...but tuners have proved otherwise. Andin the cae of the M3....BMW even brought a more powerfull car to the market with the same 3.2L I-6, only it wasnt sold in the u.s. (M3 CSL with 360HP)

Porsche has set artificial constraints on its product line ever since the 924 Turbo threatened to out-power the 911. They seem to set performance/price points and create a product line to match.



I don't have a problem with this in any way. I think the key number from all of this discussion is the relative lower entry-level Cayman price in 2007 compared to the entry-level 968 price form 1995. With the entry-level Cayman, Porsche is building a more modern car with slightly better performance (certainly better handling) at a lower cost than it did 12 years ago.



Porsche has made tremendous strides since it's near collapse in the early 1990s. While it has branched out to an SUV and soon a passenger car, its core commitment is to build the finest sports cars available. Only Ferrari has a similar goal and their cars are unobtainable by mere mortals. The current Porsche sports car line is as varied and accessible as it has ever been - and dwarfs any other company with sporting pretenses.



I think we spend quite a bit of time justifying and defending the 968. Deservedly so, as it is a fabulous car that never received the respect it deserved at the time, and still does not today. But I think when we try to make our argument by comparing the 968 to a 987-series Cayman or Boxster the rationalizations just do not fly. I am happy with my 968 and plan to remain so for some time to come. But everytime I see a Cayman S I think, "that is my next sports car."

[quote name='Fox944' post='37911' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:29 PM']The oem tires from the 90's will not only hinder decel, but accel as well.[/quote]



Very true, though only during the initial launch. Once hooked up, the older OEM tires shouldn't hinder acceleration (appreciably).



[quote name='Fox944' post='37911' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:29 PM']what is the fastest time from the 2 reviews you had for the Cayman?[/quote]



See http://www.weissach.net/RoadTestSummaries.html for a complete list



Karl.