[rhudeboye]

Thanks for the fast shipping Pete. A bit scary that you have my CC on file. All I do is call and it shows up at my door [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]

Konis are complements of the Tire Rack. 25% off through July.







Hope to have it installed on Monday.

looking to lower it about 1.5"

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[firefish]

Cool!

What spring rates are you going to run now?

Pete/RS Barn has indeed great service. I know of no other that would initiate a shipment overseas with parts for more than a grand without being paid in advance.

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[rhudeboye]

"What spring rates are you going to run now?"

Spring rate is 300. I went back and forth with the idea of 250 but after talking with Pete, I feel that 250 would be too close to stock.

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[flash]

uh - what springs or torsions are you adding in the rear, because even 250 up front without adding spring rate in the rear is too much? been there, done that - what a mess

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[rhudeboye]

"uh - what springs or torsions are you adding in the rear..."



This post doesn't seem to show in the "view new post". I know it never grabs 100% I'm just mentioning it as an excuse as to why I didnt reply sooner.


No springs in the rear. I'm lowering the back and adding the Koni Yw that I bought from you like 2 years ago. Dialing in a half turn.

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[rhudeboye]

No response in over 4 hours. See that, I bet you cant see this post cause your surfin the view new post section. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

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[flash]

i have 300# springs up front on my car - there is no way i could do that with stock torsions and have this car feel right to me - been there done that

keep in mind that i differ in philosophy of setup from most - i presume that the car will be driven to its limits regularly - i do not presume it will only be driven around town - for this reason i am uncompromising on things like balance

if i was really motivated, i could do the math to show it, and calculate the natural frequencies of the suspension based on wheel rate, but 300 is too stiff without adding rear springs - 250 is even a bit too stiff, though a lot of guys do it - i think maybe they just don't know what a balanced spring setup is supposed to feel like - i know the front end seems to be able to take a lot of spring before it feels too stiff on the street, but it takes very little to throw the balance off, and there are a couple of roads here where i could quickly demonstrate it - again, on the street, you won't notice it, and things will feel "fine"

to put this in terms that might make more sense, i will preface by saying that i come from a very tiny very lightweight car with very little power - this is referred to by racers as a "momentum car" - on cars like that, suspension is everything, and there is no room for flopping around or losing speed due to poor weight transfer or understeer or oversteer - this meant that i had a chance to really play with spring balance, and learn the finer points of what makes a car fly through corners - i had to learn the hard way sometimes, by having a car get out of control, but it did eventually result in being able to tell what a car is doing by feel

back to our car - the front tires on the 968 are already too small relative to the rear, and certainly for the weight of the car - porsche did this as a cosmetic congruence with the 911, and for reasons of cost (probably to keep the 968 from beating the crap out of the 911 too) - it was not by engineering design - this leads to understeer that already needs to be overcome - adding more is not advised

heavier front springs will only exacerbate this if you don't balance them in the rear

i have played with many different spring rates, both front and rear - i am pretty sure that 300 will make you as unhappy as it did me if you take the car to the edge - i started my journey with 300# eibach springs on yellow konis with stock torsions - the rear was soft and the front was skatey, no matter where i set the strut - it was fine on the street, but as soon as i took it to the edge, the natural frequencies showed up and on an undulating road, the front end was dancing to a different tune than the rear

the rear konis will NOT add spring rate (beyond the 25# of gas charge) - spring rate is measured by a constant load, not by deflection rate - deflection is just rebound rate - cranking up the konis will increase the rebound rate, and make it "feel" stiffer, but it won't add any spring rate - around town things will be just fine, and the car will feel more fun to drive - however, you will find out the first time you set the car in a hard long corner just what is really going on - where the rear resisted bumps at lower speeds, and felt stiff, it will now just drop down and sag relative to the front

remember that the car is set up with 160# (150# wheel rate) up front and 175# wheel rate in the rear - this is the appropriate front/rear ratio for the car weighted as it is and the tires staggered as they are, with the swaybars stock - you can tell this easily by how the car handles bumps and dips in a turn - the front and rear move together at the same rate - when the front dips, the rear dips the same amount and recovers at the same rate - this is the key to the car's natural superior handling

if you add larger swaybars, you can move the ratio closer to 50/50 because less weight is being transferred side to side, and the nature of the macpherson/banana combination changes in relative dynamics

if you add front tire width you can start to go a bit heavier up front relative to the stock front/rear ratio because the extra front rate won't add as much understeer, but the natural frequency is still an issue (keep in mind that this is "wheel rate" and not just spring rate, as the front suspension is 94% of the spring, but the rear is only 56% when using coils

i would choose 225# up front if only doing shocks in the rear - i know that seems soft, and hardly worth the effort, but the key to handling in this car is in the rear suspension, not the front

i know pete and i will disagree on this, but i've installed both sets and gone around the track - the balanced setup was faster, even though it leaned more and felt less aggressive, and was less fun to drive around town - again the difference in our approach is largely philosophical - i tune all cars with the nutty or aggressive driver in mind, and he tunes street cars with the average driver in mind, and feels that this is still an improvement over stock - i can't say i disagree with that

just for reference, i have since played with a lot more rates, and still come to the same conclusions - my front /rear wheel rate is now 282/280 using 300# eibachs up front, and 500# eibachs in the rear (no torsions) - the car is perfectly balanced in spring and all 4 corners do exactly the same thing at the same time and the same rate - this has not been an easy course

suspension choice is often a lot like a cat-back choice - while it won't add power, and may even cost you some, the experience is often improved, and that is what matters most to a lot of people

good luck

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[rhudeboye]

That really helps. Hard to believe you and Pete disagree on something [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] . Im not sure how close I've come to "the edge" but I do drive my car pretty hard in the corners. This often results in the rear stepping out a bit but its always pretty easy to get back in line. Only once did it snap back causing multiple corrections and my heart to stop but that was coming over the crest of a hill with too much speed.

So in a nut shell you would soften the front to keep it in harmony with the rear.


So who is running the 300 setup w Konis? i need to hear from you.

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[firefish]

Great post flash!

Rhudeboy, why not consider adding a help spring in the read like the M030-setup?

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[rhudeboye]

" why not consider adding a help spring in the read like the M030-setup?"

because I had no clue it could be done. Your telling me there's a space on my car for a single spring to be set in the rear?
Is there a 968 suspension for dummies book [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

For the past 3 years I've trusted the Barn and the forum (There are quite a few here that I would consider 68 specialist). Now that they disagree it's back on me to decide which route to take. I understand what struts, shocks and springs do. What I don't understand is how to bring it all together to achieve a firm ride, that's a tad lower and that assist in cornering harder. This may simply be a trial and error thing that I wont recognize until I feel it. But I'd hate to have the work done hop in and immediately feel the 300s are too brutal as Pat and Flash has said.

Looks like I'll be giving Pete another ring. I think I want the 250s which is actually where I started. I bet I'm starting to annoy him.

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[firefish]

The M030 setup had stiffer springs up front and support springs in the back - a coil over the shock (guess where the term coilover comes from). I don't have the specs but I bet someone has.

I'm guessing that a M030 rear strut from Porsche is on the far side of cheap but you should be able to find a used set on eBay or elsewhere.

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[flash]

again, while pete and i differ in philosophy, and would perhaps set a car up differently for different reasons, we both agree that 300# springs will not be "brutal" up front

keep i mind that my experience is a bit unique, and my thoughts on setup are fairly uncompromising - i drive the car from the rear - i am really paying attention to what is going on there, as it sets the tone for the rest of the car - i insist on a car that that remains settled in all situations, and doesn't bob and weave and bounce and jounce during chicanes and bumps and off camber dipping turns, while at the same time remaining civilized on the street - i want to be able to run full throttle through that stuff without having the front and rear at odds with each other while doing it - my foot sees the floor all the time, and the car lives near redline a lot - most people don't have those needs - i'm willing to pay for it too - most people aren't

as to the springs, i still have 300# springs in the car, and i had them when i still had the koni yellows - they are not and were not at all brutal - they are better now that i have dual adjustable hydraulics, but even with the gas they were fairly reasonable, though i certainly felt a lot more of the road, especially on 18s

again, you probably won't even notice the unbalance in 90% of your driving, and in that 90% it will feel more aggressive, which may translate to more fun most of the time - this would be an improvement in the experience

the area where we differ is in the rear - unfortunately there is no inexpensive way to do the rear - i have done 2 custom setups that work very well, but it's not ready to be a kit, and it isn't cheap

i would consider a 2 step approach

if it were me, i would install 200 or 225 springs up front now, with the koni yellow struts and shocks, set your ride height, and learn the car (i presume there are already M030 swaybars in there)

then, later if you still think it needs more, change your front springs and add a rear kit - springs are cheap and easy to install, and if you choose a 200 or 225, they won't be hard to sell here or to a 944 guy

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[rhudeboye]

Been doing a ton of reading so I can make somewhat of an educated decision. Enjoyed this article and decided to post the link. Though its a bit lengthy it did help me understand things a bit clearer.

http://www.924.org/techsection/Suspensio...ration.htm

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[Fox944]

rhudeboy, if you want to take a trip to upstate NY...i would let you take my car out for a spin. I'm very content with the ride quality and handling. What i've done in regards to suspension and chassis;

-H&R Progressive Springs, 1" Lower up front
-OEM rear ride hieght adjustment, 3/4" Lower in the rear
-Koni Adjustable Yellow Struts & Shocks
-M030 Front Sway Bar
-Lindsey Racing Rear Sway Bar (clone of M030 rear bar with the addition of 2 more adjustments: 1 Stiffer setting & 1 Softer setting)
-Design 1 Lower Chassis Brace
-Design 1 Upper Strut Brace
-Weltmeister Rear Chassis Brace

Outside of that, i'm running both Turbo S spoilers (front and rear) as well as R Compound Tires. So the car is glued to the ground. The Alignment is custom, one of Flash's 3 setting's.

Compared to an M030 car, i feel my car is much more composed (especially over rough and uneven surfaces) and more stable at high speeds. It does not feel as bouncy. However, the M030 set-up does have a slightly quicker turn-in response and feels more tossable.

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[rhudeboye]

Thanks Fox that does help.

Could it be said that Progressive is the best of both worlds?

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[flash]

yes - i love progressive springs - i had a set of the uber rare tech art/eibach porsche motorsport springs in the blue car when i got it - VERY nice ride - they were even more progressive than the H&R - very smooth ride, but when you tossed it into a corner it got firm, even on the OEM struts

i believe the turbo cup 944 was also progressive

side not on the article: it looks like they copied the information from clark's, as the torsion bar spec for the 968 is wrong

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[firefish]

I don't like progressive but each to their own. Common mistake when upping the suspension is to pick springs that are too weak and then having to compensate with turning the shocks to max. The problem with changing the torsion bars aside, it's better to pick bad ass spring and run a softer setting on the shocks.

I have 800's in the front, 1100's in the rear (would like 1200 but the shocks can't take it) and no rubber anywhere and my car is smooth.

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[968Syncro]

Hi Fox,

On ... "-Koni Adjustable Yellow Struts & Shocks"

Where did you set the Konis? Soft, medium, harder?

Thanks.
Roland

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[rhudeboye]

I have 800's in the front, 1100's in the rear (would like 1200 but the shocks can't take it) and no rubber anywhere and my car is smooth"

Fish
Is this a track car? I figure with springs that strong a hitting a pebble would feel like you just ran over a brick.

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[Fox944]

Roland,

I had them on the stiffest setting & they still felt more composed then an M030 car. However, the Middle settings seems to be best.

Personally i don't like Helper springs in the rear. They make the rear a little too bouncy for a street car imo. They will also hurt your 0-60 & 1/4 time if your into that type of thing....as you get axle tramp (wheel hop) which means less traction.

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